Talk:England, Kent, Workhouse Records - FamilySearch Historical Records

FamilySearch Historical Records
The collection list for the digital collections in FamilySearch.org is titled: Historical Record Collections.

The wiki articles that describe and link to these collections have the suffix (FamilySearch Historical Records) to distinguish them from other wiki articles.

Collection Operations is the unit which creates collections. The Historical Records articles are written based on the data we receive from them.

Dorothy Horan

Collection Title
Throughout the England pages references have uniformly appeared as Poor Law records; this collection title seems incongruous.

The tab for what were previously referred to as Historical Records on the Family Search website currently appears as "Records" but wiki is using "Historical Records"

One of the sections that we hope the wiki community will help us with is to replace the generic examples of source citations with examples based on the collection. Once that is done, please remove the generic examples. We write these wiki articles prior to publication of the articles, when the collection is not available for searching.

Collection Content
This needs to specify which Poor Law Union records survive and which are not included either due to loss or within the Kent Poor Law Unions which are held in other archives.

Crescunt 15:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

According to Collection Operations the collection does not contain Poor Law Union Records.

The wiki articles that are linked to specific collections are labeled "Historical Records". No other wiki articles use this label.

I do not understand your response Workhouse records refer to one of two types of Poor Law records:

1)Those parish workhouses which existed prior to the formation of the Poor Law Union in parishes or groups of parishes ("Gilbert Unions"or

2) Poor Law Union records

Perhaps "Collection Operations" could identify which records and which parishes this intended collection intends to cover. How can local contributors respond to this page invitation if the content of the collection is obscure? Crescunt 20:59, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Kent Poor Law Union records are included
There are now contradictory statements about this collection.

For those of us who work regularly in the Kent Archives collections and who could contribute to the various Kent Pages including:

England, Kent, Register of Electors (FamilySearch Historical Records)

England, Kent, Wills and Probate (FamilySearch Historical Records)

England, Kent, Parish Registers and Bishop's Transcripts (FamilySearch Historical Records)

as well as this page we need to be able to identify which ecclesiastical and civil parishes in this large county FamilySearch is asking for assistance with. We imagine that any reader of these pages could realistically expect a content table for the extent of any published collection of records, gaps in records, state of preservation. There is also another local archive factor to be borne in mind and that is the location of the original records due to the establishment in future of a Family History Centre for Kent Archives and that in parts of the historic county of Kent other archives hold material (Medway, Bromley, Lewisham, Greenwich Archives as well as the Metropolitan Record Office).

Can I point out that this extant page contains illustrations of images from Poor Law Union records and the source citation suggests that certain parish workhouse records prior to formation of the Poor Law Union are included for some parishes whilst other Poor Law Union records from the 1880's are included (see image). For those of us who will continue to contribute to parish pages for the county and any Kent Parish in the Diocese of Chichester Sussex it would be helpful if FamilySearch could guide us to the parishes you are requesting contribution for. The initial anonymous response to this question from someone referring to "Collection Operations" contradicts the existing content of the page and is inadequate in response to the point raised.If the aim of this page is to engage those of us who have contributed content to hundreds of pages and include a wide variety of experienced genealogists, archivists, members of Family History Society and our new Online Parish Clerks to assist with the content from our local knowledge perhaps you could reconsider responses to contributor requests for further information about each of the intended publications within the County. I would welcome a more detailed response in order to discuss both with colleagues in various organisations I have referred to. The page would be improved by the removal of paragraphs about source citations from other countries which are irrelavent but presumably part of a template when the page is created no matter which country the collection belongs to. As the source citation hints at both a year range and location of deposited records (Centre for Kentish Studies, Maidstone) the other country examples seem wholly irrelavant. We would like to clarify this point as it affects how we choose to add Workhouse information to relevant parish pages throughout the county. Some parish workhouse information from Bromley Archives, Medway Archives and elsewhere is already included in parish pages and we have research underway to identify others. Your intended publications would therefore inform the time being spent to research in archives. In the absence of such information it is very likely that we would not attempt to contribute in future until you identify the content of your coverage. A group of 10 people are watching these collection pages for reply who have contributed extensively and who also have the potential to consult other colleagues in order to add future content and complement their work in Wikpedia over a decade to improve knowledge of the county cities, towns and churches. Ps1964 14:03, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Illustrations on this page
The Admission and discharge image is for the Isle of Thanet Admission register for a quarter in 1888 Thanet Poor Law Union, Kent

The other image on the page is for Admission and discharge, birth, and death registers for the workhouse at Minster, Kent, 1848-1914

Thus both images which have been added to the existing page are in respect of Poor Law Union workhouses, and as we examined the original records in the two Kent Archives at Maidstone and Canterbury this week to establish this it does appear to us that there is some contradiction between the information from Collection Operations and the initial content of the page. If you are inviting us to contribute to this page on the basis of our local view of the records either in parish workhouse material ( often parish chest records for poor rate) and any surviving pre Poor Law Union material or in surviving Poor Law records we would appreciate a content table of which workhouses and periods this collection will comprise. We are already encountering within Kent Parish pages opportunities to link to this collection for Workhouses locations for the town Workhouses which existed prior to formation of the Poor Law Union in towns. We could disregard this page entirely and presume that FamilySearch would then complete the content prior to or at time of publication of the images; however the page contains an invitation for us to contribute and overlaps our existing research for parishes. The closure for 7 months of the Canterbury Cathedral Archive ( which is where the Minster record image was filmed) means that our view will be of microfilm records for the next 7 months. As a group we are rather disappointed in the lack of information about the content of the collection which accompanies your invitation and therefore disinclined to contribute. To re-itearate we have local access to these records and do not need to await publication by FamilySearch but we do need to know the intended records to be published. If you look at the England, Sussex, Church of England, Church Records (FamilySearch Historical Records) you will see that a description of the content has lead to every church in the Diocese of Chichester records deposited in both record offices in the county having information in FamilySearch wiki; many new pages were created to achieve this coverage by local contributors and far exceeeds the intended scope of the FamilySearch Indexing parishes in East and West Sussex. We also identified shortcomings in the Family History Library information about a number of parishes and await the re-engineering of your catalogue to correct these. Crescunt 23:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Collection Content Descriptions
Oh dear! Another request for local contributors lacking a clear statement of the collection scope and using a very basic template page. It does feel as a local contributor that the same circle is being repeated by FamilySearch staff and that there is a series of groups of staff at FamilySearch who are not quite communicating with each other on the way they are presenting requests to wiki contributors. If I have daily or weekly access to original source records which FamilySearch intend to publish in future I am probably able to contribute something to assist your wiki development. However if your request to me is so vague I do not know which groups of records you are referring to ( or which archive) I am not going to be able to contribute. The more I see this situation repeated the less likely I am to contribute at all in future. This is stating the obvious but it seems that FamilySearch has some organisational issues to address before asking me for any contribution. I hope that this helps FamilySearch wiki to improve how it approaches potential contributors; please state clearly what you intend to publish and distinguish between parish and Town workhouse locations and subsequent Poor Law Unions. You also need to amend your template to explain Incorporation history and Gilbert Unions history as in certain locations these exist distinctly from the local Poor Law Union workhouses. Chichgirl 15:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Unable to contribute
Despite my familiarity with the records which it appears are in this collection at the Centre for Kentish Studies, Maidstone I will be unable to contribute to this page unless Family Search staff improve the quality of information about the exact scope and precise content of material. Within the archive it is necessary to use either parish material or Poor Law Union material depending on the Workhouse concerned. The current information on this page is inadequate for any further research to add to the existing content; this is reliant on FamilySearch managers providing more detail. I echo concern about the heading of the collection if as the image illustrations indicate this is in fact Poor Law Union material. Village/Parish material for workhouses will need to be illustrated as such and not by Poor Law Union records. This page needs to be precise in what is contained in the collection and why some year gaps are in the records.

I echo colleagues concern about the initial response to this request from local contributors for clarification and as a result I am personally reconsidering any desire to continue to contribute to this wiki project along with other colleagues. We contribute here but are all involved in other family history employment and volunteer roles. If this standard of presentation and response is indicative of FamilySearch I will not be associated with your organisation in future Penshurst 10:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Might I add a suggestion: A staff is putting up these templates on everyone of the 'Historical Record' collections all over the world. It is obvious they are not familiar with the content as the templates are quite rudimentary. If you can see how to explain this collection then do it. If you have to delete sections, move sections, rename sections, or add sections than just do that. Link to existing material instead of repeating it over again. If the template goes off topic just delete the material and start over. Donjgen 07:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)