Template talk:FHL

Template Modification?
Currently this template links to the call number page for books. This isn't as useful as linking to the title page. Can this be changed?Charlene Pipkin 16:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I am trying to find out if other IDs are currently persistent and will continue to be in the future. The whole idea of using the call number is that is something that will never (or very unlikely to) change. In the next version of the FHLC, I do not know what will be available. I am open to changes as long as they meet this type of criteria. Thomas_Lerman 01:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

FHL or Family History Library?
Is it too cumbersome to spell out Family History Library for the template? We want to be mindful that many researchers aren't familiar with the acronyms that we use. Charlene Pipkin 21:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * A very good question. As long as I understand your question correctly, this has actually been discussed in a meeting a while back and the decision was made to use FHL as the official style. Changes would require a new discussion and style change. Thomas_Lerman 21:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Display type and CD examples
Please allow a way to show whether the item is a Book, Film, Fiche, or CD-ROM in the call number. For example, FHL Book 973 X2Lai, or FHL Film 203621. Diltsgd 14:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for commenting. The plan is to allow those at an absolute minimum. Do you have an example of CD-ROM? I know the microfiche have numbers just like the microfilm. I have requested an extension that will make some of this easier. I have wondered if a need exists for locality look-ups, showing summary vs. details, etc. Thomas Lerman 14:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Examples:
 * CD-ROM no. 1198
 * CD-ROM no. 9 pt. 453 disc 6


 * I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a locality look-up, summary, or details. I hope a user who clicks an FHLC number in the Wiki is taken to the the FHLC Title Details screen in most cases, and for long lists of film or fiche numbers to the FHLC Film Notes screen. Diltsgd 15:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I just realized something else you said. You requested the type to be displayed (film, book, CD, etc.). According to consensus in the Manual of Style (as long as I understood it correctly), the media type would not be displayed. If you feel this should be revisited, may I suggest that you put it on a community meeting agenda? It may be worth discussing more. A discussion on what I was referring to with summary or details is more like the questions I posed in the Microfilm section below. Thomas Lerman 18:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

For the above examples see the sections below for their results Books, Microfilm / Fiche, and CDs. Thomas_Lerman 18:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * CDs has been resolved. See the section mentioned in previous post. Thomas_Lerman 20:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion in Manual of Style
Other discussion may be viewed as part of the Manual of Style. Thomas Lerman 18:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Long lists of items?
See FamilySearch Wiki:Guiding Principles and FamilySearch Wiki:Purpose and Appropriate Topics (specifically Limited Topics). Maybe we need to have title numbers if they will be persistent??? * See Title number section. Thomas_Lerman 17:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Required extension for implementation
This template requires #Replace: functionality. This functionality is achieved through the StringFunctions within the ParserFunctions. . . may need an upgrade to ParserFunctions and definitely enable them. Thomas Lerman 18:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Microfilm / Fiche
Current example(s) cited elsewhere in this article:


 * Film: produces
 * Film: produces

Should microfilm produce which of the following (currently produces )?


 * 1) Film search results (with columns)
 * 2) Film search results (without columns or colors)
 * 3) Film search results (with colors, but no columns)
 * 4) Title details * See Title number section
 * 5) Title film notes * See Title number section
 * 6) something else

Thomas Lerman 18:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Film number not working
Dsammy pointed out that some problem exists on Remich Commune, Luxembourg where you find the census in the FHLC, copy the film number (ie. 2398734), use this in with this result. This link is not right. I found that I was testing some other thing and forgot to change it back. This uses title details which uses some other title number other the the film number. I should have been using (and am back there now) the Film Hit List similar to the Book Hit List where this same example produces this result. See Title number section. Thomas_Lerman 16:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is the Record ID is leading to different records instead of the intended ones.

Remich, Luxembourg Census record id is 1353902 http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&amp;titleno=1353902&amp;disp=Recensement+de+Remich+%28Luxembourg%29%20%20&amp;columns=*,0,0 (can't use individual film numbers)

The end result it went to Mutignano (Teramo). Ufficio dello stato civile http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=filmhitlist&amp;columns=*,0,0&amp;filmno=1353900


 * Thank you for your comment Sammy. However, you are using the Record ID synonymously with Film Number . . . they are just not the same thing. At this time, Record ID is not supported here. I am waiting to hear back from some people at headquarters first, but guess I will not until after NGS. Thomas_Lerman 04:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Books
Current example(s) cited elsewhere in this article:


 * Book: produces

Should books produce which of the following?


 * 1) Call number search results ordered by call number
 * 2) Call number search results ordered by title
 * 3) Call number search results ordered by author
 * 4) Title details * See Title number section
 * 5) something else

Thomas Lerman 19:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I read some statements that all FHL book numbers begin with 9. This is not true. There are hundreds of books in the FHL that do not begin with 9. Many are general books, such as dictionaries, and many others are books about religions. Often they are multi-volumn sets and are major collections. The following are examples of US books whose numbers do NOT begin with 9:

011.35 N479 (Newspapers in Microform: United States)

016.091 N21 (National Union Catalog of Manuscript Collections)

016.9291 K128g (Genealogies in the Library of Congress)

266.00922 B52 (Biographical Dictionary of Christian Missions)

289.3 Ea85m (Membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1830-1848)

289.3 G286g (Genealogical Surveys of LDS Members: Autobiographies and Ancestors)

289.309 R541c (Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)

289.333 B561e (Early Members of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)

403.41 Sco87c (A Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue)

423 W395c (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary)

428.1 M855a (Acronyms, Initialisms, and Abbreviations Dictionary)

792.026 K824h (A History of Costume)

Marilyn Markham 17 August 2010


 * Thank you very much for the examples. I am communicating with the person that told me that they all begin with a '9' to see if I misunderstood, they were mistaken, or what happened. I believe they have been involved with the catalog at some point. Thank you again and will keep you up to date. Thomas_Lerman 15:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * After discussion with the person at FamilySearch that told me about the '9', I was told that takes care of MOST cases. This would not be acceptable. After much discussion, we found books ALWAYS have a space in the call number. I discussed it further with someone else more familiar with the catalog and was able to confirm this fact. The template has changed to work using this method. Thomas_Lerman 20:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for doing this and for doing it so quickly! There should be a space between the Dewey number (all numbers, like 428.1) and the Cutter number (letter(s) and number(s), like M855a).  The two combined give the book number of 428.1 M855a with a space between.  Marilyn Markham 19 August 2010

CDs
Current example(s) cited elsewhere in this article:


 * CDs: see CDs section

Two examples were given of CD examples above. However, the URL uses a title number that is not anywhere on the page. How would someone find a CD or the title number? Thomas Lerman 19:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This has not been answered. The template does not work for CDs at this time as Title numbers are not implemented at this time. * See Title number section. Thomas_Lerman 19:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * This has been resolved. CDs are found through a Call Number Search (same as a book). Thomas_Lerman 20:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Pamphlets / Pedigrees / Maps
As it turns out, pamphlets, pedigrees, and maps may ALSO be found through a Call Number Search (same as a book). Examples have been added. Is there anything else? I would guess it may be found through the same Call Number Search. Thomas_Lerman 20:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Place / Surname / Keyword / Title / Author / Subject
Is there a need to be able to display anything from the FHLC based upon any of the following items (examples provided):


 * Place: Kalamazoo (Allegan)
 * Most of the rest of the following can also provide more details such as what follows, but the require an ID that may not be persistent.
 * Place: Michigan, Allegan, Kalamazoo
 * Place: New York, New York (City)
 * Surname: Einstein
 * Keyword: Holocaust
 * Title: Burned counties
 * Author: Wismer, William Clare
 * Subject: Knights
 * Any others?

Thomas Lerman 19:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Several of us would really like to link to a catalog results set based on place and subject, for example: Kentucky, Boone - Cemeteries Massachusetts, Suffolk, Boston - Church records

California - History - 1846-1850

As new things are added to the catalog, they would automatically be on the results list that Wiki would direct people to. That would be easier than for us to remember and find the time to go see what is new for a particular topic and locality. This would be updated when the catalog is updated.

I haven't tried to link by just subject, but there could be times when we would want to do this for books/records, such as:

Pioneers - California

African American Women

Amish

Some books/records are not tied to a locality at all. They can't be found in a Place Search, only by Subject, Author or Title. For example:

- Cleon Skousen's book, The Story of the Mormon Pioneers. The subject headings for this book are 'Pioneers' and 'Mormons - Biography'.

- The Mennonites, by C. Henry Smith only has 'Mennonites' as the subject heading.

So people who don't know the author and title would have a hard time finding them without the link to the Subject results set. Keyword could be useful also.

Currently I don't think we would need the search results by Surname, Title or Author, since we are writing about places and topics/subjects.

Marilyn Markham, 29 August 2010


 * I am not opposed to any other options. The factors would require the link to be permanent (in other words, not changing from the current FHLC to the one in beta). Can you provide links to both catalogs of what you would like to see? It may be helpful to provide steps on how you got the results. It would be nice if I had access to those familiar with both on-line catalogs. When you talk about results based upon "place and subject", are you referring to a "Place Search" and a "Subject Search" or doing a "Place Search" and then drilling down to a subject? It kind of sounds like the latter. Summarizing, "Place", "Subject", and "Keyword" may come in handy, but not "Surname", "Title", and "Author" probably are not useful. Thomas_Lerman 22:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Title number
This has not been implemented at this time. The potential problems with using this:


 * 1) Requires a title number instead of the film / call number. I do not know if these are persistent.
 * 2) The display name should be passed into it to get the title bar correct. This seems very odd that these work this way.

I am waiting for comments from the FHLC engineers as posted in the forum. Thomas_Lerman 18:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&amp;titleno=1353902

The real problem is how the template was written. This is actual Remich, Luxembourg census record, not film number. What we need is different template to cover the record, not film. wdsamuelsen 04:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I am working on getting information from HQ that will dictate how we interface with the FHLC. Depending on their answers will depend on how this template will expand. It is not a problem with how it is written. I have asked for suggestions a while back and implemented what was requested. Recent requests require information that I am trying to request. Answers probably will not come until after NGS. Thomas_Lerman 05:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Which to keep and which to get rid of
Under "Are these needed?" section - first two items requires 2nd step to get to main record. They are not wanted or encouraged. The one named "FHL Collection", is the exact one we have been asking for long time because they are the main records we want to go to right away. Just get rid of "item", and add comment that nothing is to be added after the record id number at all. dsammy 20:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, it has been discussed to leave those "film" and "book" types and use the default as is for a couple of reasons. First, the Guiding Principles that were set for in meetings quite a while ago stated that they would refer to film &amp; book numbers and the layout would be "FHL" followed by that number. Secondly, the way the FHL template has mostly been used is with the film / book number. As far as I have seen or heard, only two people have requested the "item" type. I do not have a problem with it any longer (the FHLC people gave me the information that I needed). The problem is that it goes against the Guiding Principles that were set for the use and layout of references to the FHLC. Thomas_Lerman 21:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * They can't win every time. Some times they have to yield to the reality of technology. dsammy 22:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Ran into a problem, looks like "item" must be used if we are to link to the title subject, otherwise, without the "item", will take you to a record of film. Other problems turned up:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localitydetails&amp;subject=207061 - FHL|207061|item - will take you to http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&amp;titleno=207061 for Polk County, Missouri Land Sales. (Bleech!) Some work is needed to enable anyone to go to the whole county or whole state or province or country instead of being diverted to title-detail record. If specific record is referred to, it works like it should be.


 * Thank you Sammy for the comment. This is not a problem with the template, but how you are trying to use the template. One cannot, or should not, just take numbers from one implementation and think that all other numbers will magically work with it. It is not intended for doing locality searches. For almost a year, I have asked about other types of searches including locality searches (see above) and have not got any responses until now. It looks like you had searched for "Baker" as parts of "Oregon" within the current FHLC and selected "Oregon, Baker" to view those details. If you do the same thing in the beta FHLC, you would not get in the URL the same number as the titleno as in the current one. This tells me that the number is not likely a persistent number or at least not accessible the same way. I am not so sure that we should allow listing every single usage of the FHLC. This seems to go against many things talked about in meetings. Thomas_Lerman 14:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We need to get together in person and look closely at the different type of records used in the Catalog and send report to those in Catalog section informing them of the problems we uncovered that do not work with the Guidelines they gave us. One is working but not as intended, and not the other ones. dsammy 16:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not following you. All instances are working as intended &amp; defined. They are working exactly as the FHLC folks have talked about as well. Thomas_Lerman 20:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

naw! http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localitydetails&amp;subject=207061&amp;subject_disp=Oregon%2C++Baker&amp;columns=*,0,0

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=topicdetails&amp;subject=455439&amp;subject_disp=Oregon%2C++Baker++-++Biography&amp;columns=*,0,0

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&amp;titleno=508030&amp;disp=The++History++of++Baker++County%2C++Oreg%20%20&amp;columns=*,0,0

Guess which one is accurate?

first one went to Polk County Missouri - "Land sales in area of Polk County, Missouri..." 2nd one went to "Registres paroissiaux, 1587-1792" 3rd one went to "The History of Baker County, Oregon" (can't be book only because it is available on film, too, hence one link is sufficient, redundant linking - good grief!)

As you ca see, some of them are not working as intended. dsammy 06:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The template IS working as intended and designed. You are attempting to use it in a way that it was never intended nor designed. The subject ID is not the same as any of the other IDs that are used in the template. Thomas_Lerman 18:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Linking to books
This was posted in the Forum: The template to link books to the FHL catalog takes one to the call number search, NOT the title search. If it doesn't link to the title page, especially for books, how is it useful to have the link? -Charlene Pipkin


 * Thank you Fran for posting this. Which thread did it come from? I was unable to find it. It is similar to one of the posts at the top of this page. Just like films, it shows a similar list. It also matches the information talked about in previous meetings. I suppose if one wants to get to title details, they can use the "item" type and get directly to the collection. Thomas_Lerman 05:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The post is is on the second page about two-thirds the way down the screen. --Fran 18:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not seeing that posting. Which post number is it in that thread? I only found two postings on page 2 from Pipkin, but they did not include that posting. I searched that page for other keywords and did not find them either. What is going on here? Thomas_Lerman 18:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Finally ran across it on page 7 (posting #69). Thomas_Lerman 15:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Ref Q book, and ampersand problems
I used this template in New England Historic Genealogical Society for a Ref Q book called the Greenlaw Index of the New England Historic Genealogical Society. Something makes the template fall apart after a few saves when the pipe turns into multiplying ampersands. I suspect it has to do with the unusual nature of the call number. Can this be fixed? DiltsGD 04:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I took a quick look and did not see what you were talking about, sorry. Are you referring to the Call Number of "974 D22g"? I do not see anything unusual about the call number. Every multiplying ampersands that I have seen had to do with the Rich Editor and would guess this is the case here too. Definitely the template would not have turned the pipe into something else. Thomas_Lerman 05:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I went back to the troublesome Template:FHL spot and like you found nothing unusual in regular text. When I clicked the edit button it still looked normal.


 * But when I switched to WikiText it changed to this: []. When I clicked Save page the new normal text display was changed to []. The curly brackets and pipe were now visible where they should not be.


 * When I went back to edit mode and switched into WikiText the template had transformed into []. So we have the return of the multiplying ampersand. DiltsGD 14:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Definitely would be the editor as suspected. I am not so sure that it has ever been fixed. Out of curiosity, why do you put the template inside of the square brackets? The template creates the link. I am wondering if the square brackets is causing the editor to think that a pipe needs to encoded. Why not just do a which generates ? Want to try it? Thomas_Lerman 15:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * My square brackets are just punctuation. I was taught to put brackets around call numbers in a citation situation. DiltsGD 15:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Understood, but the Wiki interprets square brackets as something else and is likely causing the problems for you. As I recall, the format of the display was discussed in a meeting and the FHL template was generated based upon that. Maybe it should be discussed again, not really sure. Thomas_Lerman 15:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)